Curse

XvArchonvX · Jun 26, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewAtHome

I'm basing my new ranger's "do everything" PvE build on Sha's ideal build. It's been working very well so far but I just need to finalise what skills I shall continue to use.

Here's my desired skill bar:

1) [interrupt]
2) [interrupt or bow attack]
3) [bow attack]
4) Kindle arrows [or other prep?]
5) Mend ailment
6) Troll unguent
7) Storm chaser
8) Rebirth

I'm only in maguuma so I don't have the ideal skills for the first 3 slots yet, and I'm looking for suggestions. So what is the best selection to use?

Also, is there a prep which deals poison? I found a nice poisonous bow (using my ele), which I'd like to use.

There is a poison preparation called Apply Poison. If you are using a Prophecies character you can get this skill from a skill trader NPC in the area called Ascalon Settlements which is north-west of Lion's Arch.

Depending on what attack skill you have equipped, you may want to stick with Kindle Arrows since Apply Poison cost 15 energy and can be a bit energy heavy if you have attack skills that cost 10 energy and are used often.

Poison will cause a good deal of degen, but Kindle Arrows will deal the most damage if you are targeting one target. However, poisoning multiple targets multiplies the damage it does. If you use a build such as Sha's, you may want to stick with Kindle Arrows.

Sha Noran · Jun 27, 2006, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Depending on what attack skill you have equipped, you may want to stick with Kindle Arrows since Apply Poison cost 15 energy and can be a bit energy heavy if you have attack skills that cost 10 energy and are used often.

... says the guy who uses Apply then spreads it with Savage spam.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewAtHome

I'm basing my new ranger's "do everything" PvE build on Sha's ideal build. It's been working very well so far but I just need to finalise what skills I shall continue to use.

Here's my desired skill bar:

1) [interrupt]
2) [interrupt or bow attack]
3) [bow attack]
4) Kindle arrows [or other prep?]
5) Mend ailment
6) Troll unguent
7) Storm chaser
8) Rebirth

I'm only in maguuma so I don't have the ideal skills for the first 3 slots yet, and I'm looking for suggestions. So what is the best selection to use?

Also, is there a prep which deals poison? I found a nice poisonous bow (using my ele), which I'd like to use.

I'm glad you've chosen to use it; it will serve you well.

Now then, you probably won't get certain skills for some time (i.e. Punishing Shot, or Savage Shot for that matter), but never fear! There are plenty of early alternatives available.

Trying to post a build without knowing what you have to work with might be hard; add me to friends and message me when you see me in game, I'll be happy to help you sort out a build to use. :-D

XvArchonvX · Jun 27, 2006, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

... says the guy who uses Apply then spreads it with Savage spam.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

However, poisoning multiple targets multiplies the damage it does. If you use a build such as Sha's, you may want to stick with Kindle Arrows.

In your build, you have no traps, so you spend most of your time shooting arrows. In my build, I let the degen do damage as well as use traps to control enemy movement while adding additional damage. To say that both skills are always useless is ignorance. The key is how the skill is used. If someone prefers a build such as yours, Kindle is a good choice. If someone prefers to use traps as well, such as in mine, Apply Poison is a good choice.

Sha Noran · Jun 27, 2006, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Ok, enough.

Using Traps and Bow Attacks mixed together in a build and trying to use both consistantly (i.e. not just dropping a Barbed trap by your casters for kiting, but, oh, I dunno, running into the middle of the enemies and using Flame Trap) is like running Healing and Prot at the same time. It's also sort of like a Hammer Warrior stopping his Adrenaline spike, hitting an evasive stance, and dropping a trap. It's just stupid. Don't do it. Pick which you want to run (Traps, Interrupts, Damage) and stick with just that.

Poison Arrow is better than Apply Poison in PvE in 99% of the instances where you'll want to run Poison. To cite an easy third party example, the R/Me FoW Forest solo (by Remmeh) uses Kindle+Poison Arrow. It's not an Elite skill for no reason. There is no debate. Drop it.

Our Oath Shot debate is at least interesting as the advantage of one over the other isn't as blatantly clear, and if you'd really like to bring up some more interesting points I'll be happy to continue it. Arguing with me about your build from page one and Apply Poison, however, is just going to stop. Post regarding it again if you want, but I'm done. You're wrong. Sorry.

XvArchonvX · Jun 27, 2006, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Ok, enough.

Using Traps and Bow Attacks mixed together in a build and trying to use both consistantly (i.e. not just dropping a Barbed trap by your casters for kiting, but, oh, I dunno, running into the middle of the enemies and using Flame Trap) is like running Healing and Prot at the same time. It's also sort of like a Hammer Warrior stopping his Adrenaline spike, hitting an evasive stance, and dropping a trap. It's just stupid. Don't do it. Pick which you want to run (Traps, Interrupts, Damage) and stick with just that.

The problem with running heal and prot at the same time in a monk is that you are splitting your attributes. The reason traps are legitamate with bow attacks is because you already use Wilderness Survival with Apply Poison and Troll Unguent, so no splitting of attributes is needed.

If damage is what the team needs, they can easily get an air spike ele or warrior that can out damage you as a ranger. The point of my build like I said over and over is to control aggro and protect the back line. If you understand how the AoE effect works, you can use it to your advantage.

I used to think that traps and bow attacks should never run in the same build for the longest time. I understand that cookie cutter builds are usually chosen because they are generally what suite best, but this is not an absolute rule, especially with a flexible class such as a mesmer or ranger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Poison Arrow is better than Apply Poison in PvE in 99% of the instances where you'll want to run Poison. To cite an easy third party example, the R/Me FoW Forest solo (by Remmeh) uses Kindle+Poison Arrow. It's not an Elite skill for no reason. There is no debate. Drop it.

I'm having a little trouble following your logic here. At first you were arguing about how usefulness of a skill didn't count for some skills (such as Oath Shot) because they were used in solo farm builds, but now you say that Poison Arrow is a legitamate skill because it is used in one?

I told you before, Poison Arrow is a fine skill, but if you want to be able to control enemy aggro and protect the back lines with traps then you will want a good defensive skill to be able to do so safely. This is why I chose Escape. Not only does it serve this purpose, but it also serves as a running skill which allows me to consolidate two skill slots.

Obviously this is not a strategy you prefer and that is fine, but I have played this build extensively and have had much success with it, so I know it is legitamate. If all you are going to do is repeat your same arguments that I already presented counter points to, then it would be more civil to agree that we disagree instead of saying that I'm stupid. Mud slinging is not appreciated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Our Oath Shot debate is at least interesting as the advantage of one over the other isn't as blatantly clear,

I'm glad to see that we can now agree on this point. Perhaps there is hope for us afterall.
~.^

Sha Noran · Jun 27, 2006, 07:25 AM // 07:25

You're not stupid, you're wrong. You're build is not as effecient or as effective. Sorry to be the one to break it to you. I offered suggestion, you are going to ignore them, that's fine. Have fun with your build.

As far as the Oath Shot debate, it may be close regarding damage potential but in reality, it just simply will not deal as much as a Trapper's Focus build will because you're interrupted while I'm not.

XvArchonvX · Jun 27, 2006, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

You're build is not as effecient or as effective.

Efficient or effective at what? If you still don't believe the traps can be used as I suggest I invite you to join me in game and I can display it's use in a quest or mission.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

As far as the Oath Shot debate, it may be close regarding damage potential but in reality, it just simply will not deal as much as a Trapper's Focus build will because you're interrupted while I'm not.

My experience with the build itself says otherwise. However since I believe we have both stated our points for and against the builds, I think we can leave this one as something we disagree on opinion wise.

SnipiousMax · Jun 27, 2006, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Poison Arrow is better than Apply Poison in PvE in 99% of the instances where you'll want to run Poison. To cite an easy third party example, the R/Me FoW Forest solo (by Remmeh) uses Kindle+Poison Arrow. It's not an Elite skill for no reason. There is no debate. Drop it.

I'm still not buying this one. In all of the cases that have been mentioned in this thread (ie... Spreading poison to multiple targets) Apply poison would be more effiecient, and would leave you with a free elite slot. You can say that you deal more damage by using poison arrow, but Apply poison lets you use other skills while you are poisoning, so I don't think that arguement is solid either. Your damage is not going to be spectacular either way, so I'd rather be able to use an interrupt and poison at the same time (opinion on poison aside).

Sha Noran · Jun 27, 2006, 03:07 PM // 15:07

If you don't want to run Poison, then don't, but if you're going to run Poison, run it the right way. You will get more damage overall by running a different prep on top of Poison Arrow than you would by running Apply Poison with (x). Once you spread the Poison around the group, all you really need to do is attack normally until the Poison begins to wear off (17 seconds at only 12 WS, 21 seconds at 16 WS) at which time you spread the degen back around (assuming the enemy group is even still around by then). If you're running Apply, you're wasting time stacking Poison on targets that don't need it again. You're much better off dealing significant damage with another prep and attack skills and taking advantage of a longer Poison duration.

Avarre · Jun 27, 2006, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Poison arrow combined with, say, kindle, allows you to liberally place poison across the field, before focusing on the target and using other skills + kindle (a damage preperation) to deal damage.

We have two arguments, application and target stages;

Poison, + preperation damage. Preperation + skill damage.
Poison + skill damage. Skill damage.

It doesn't take rocket sceience to figure it out. What other elite are you going to run? Punishing (?)- the + damage on that is not worth the loss of kindle damage across all attacks as shown above, considering you have other skills dealing damage once focusing on a single target.

SnipiousMax · Jun 27, 2006, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

If you don't want to run Poison, then don't, but if you're going to run Poison, run it the right way.

Either run poison or don't at all. Don't run it halfway.

Quote:

You're much better off dealing significant damage with another prep and attack skills and taking advantage of a longer Poison duration.

This is the kicker for me. Let's run a normal everyday scenario. Lets say your group is fighting afflicted. A very balanced mob, lots of variety. Running Apply Poison, I begin my tab-space degen application. As I'm tabbing through my targets, I notice an Elementalist is about to cast Lightning Orb, so i Savage Shot dealing extra damage and saving my monk from having to heal the damage. I continue to tab through, and I notice a warrior is running across to smack my backline around, so I use hunter's shot and apply a -7 degen compared to a -4 degen. As I tab through my list of targets, spells are interrupted, attack skills are tossed in, etc. Utility wins everytime for a ranger. The mob is not going to stand around graciously while I'm poisoning them, they are going to be doing what they do from the start. If you are going to run Poison, run it without letting it get in the way of what makes a Ranger shine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

<snip>

Damage is secondary for a Ranger. Besides that, Using apply poison allows you to skip the initial 'application' stage. You can get right into the battle like you would normally.

Lasher Dragon · Jun 27, 2006, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

This is the kicker for me. Let's run a normal everyday scenario. Lets say your group is fighting afflicted. A very balanced mob, lots of variety. Running Apply Poison, I begin my tab-space degen application. As I'm tabbing through my targets, I notice an Elementalist is about to cast Lightning Orb, so i Savage Shot dealing extra damage and saving my monk from having to heal the damage. I continue to tab through, and I notice a warrior is running across to smack my backline around, so I use hunter's shot and apply a -7 degen compared to a -4 degen. As I tab through my list of targets, spells are interrupted, attack skills are tossed in, etc. Utility wins everytime for a ranger. The mob is not going to stand around graciously while I'm poisoning them, they are going to be doing what they do from the start. If you are going to run Poison, run it without letting it get in the way of what makes a Ranger shine.

Agreed. When I first capped Poison Arrow, I used it a lot and really enjoyed it. Then, after capping a few different elites, I realized that really the ONLY time it's worth bringing Poison Arrow instead of Apply Poison is if you are running some kind of conjure-based prep build. Other than that, bring Apply and use your elite slot on something with more potential.

Peewee · Jun 27, 2006, 04:05 PM // 16:05

I will say it once, i will say it again.

Drop the bow. Drop everying in markmanship. Drop a Hammer on people heads.

Avarre · Jun 27, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Damage is secondary for a Ranger. Besides that, Using apply poison allows you to skip the initial 'application' stage. You can get right into the battle like you would normally.

Damage, or prevention thereof, is always the primary concern.

The battle does not end during the application phase. There is then the time you can battle normally. During this time, the enemies you declare so devastating that need to be interrupted are STILL doing their skills that cause these problems. After looking at the foes while applying a full spread of poison, you can identify those that need watching and continue to attack and monitor them with interrupt and other skills. Apply poison does not allow you to skip the initial application phase, as you still have to attack everything once first. Quickly poisoning, then moving in to do what you consider the most important part is more effective then trying to do both at once.

Rangers are quite like mesmers in this regard. Not to mention if you see a skill being used after you fire off a poison arrow, you can quickly follow it with an interrupt. This is only the first segment of the battle, as I stated to the ranger in this case there are two. You're losing poison application speed in favor of a stopped skill, however the fact that PA has poison on all, and can still serve that purpose outstrips AP in terms of overall applied and prevented damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peewee

I will say it once, i will say it again.

Drop the bow. Drop everying in markmanship. Drop a Hammer on people heads.

Now there's one way to kite the flow of discussion

Sha Noran · Jun 27, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Poison arrow combined with, say, kindle, allows you to liberally place poison across the field, before focusing on the target and using other skills + kindle (a damage preperation) to deal damage.

We have two arguments, application and target stages;

Poison, + preperation damage. Preperation + skill damage.
Poison + skill damage. Skill damage.

It doesn't take rocket sceience to figure it out. What other elite are you going to run? Punishing (?)- the + damage on that is not worth the loss of kindle damage across all attacks as shown above, considering you have other skills dealing damage once focusing on a single target.

QFT. It's common sense people, really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snipious Max

As I'm tabbing through my targets, I notice an Elementalist is about to cast Lightning Orb, so i Savage Shot dealing extra damage and saving my monk from having to heal the damage.

Yea, Savage the Spell, then Poison Arrow, then move on. It's not like you're a bot, only able to use Poison Arrow until everything is Poisoned. Again, common sense ftw.

SnipiousMax · Jun 27, 2006, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

<Snip>

Your entire arguement rests on what happens after the 'application.' Nothing at all is stopping you from appling a different preperation after poison has been applied. Stopping for two seconds to cast it is hardly a drawback. You could argue poison duration, which would be a much stronger arguement, But the difference comes down to a few seconds.

What you've presented so far is hardly a reason to use an elite slot for something easily covered by a non-elite.

Sha Noran · Jun 27, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Your entire arguement rests on what happens after the 'application.' Nothing at all is stopping you from appling a different preperation after poison has been applied. Stopping for two seconds to cast it is hardly a drawback.

Oh my God... you're seriously suggesting running two preps? Just... let's pretend you didn't just say that.

SnipiousMax · Jun 27, 2006, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Oh my God... you're seriously suggesting running two preps? Just... let's pretend you didn't just say that.

Little test.

We'll take to Rangers (hypothetical of course), and set them in the Isle of the Nameless. One running poison Arrow, the other apply poison. We'll set them in front of the dummies. We'll assume that they will 'have' to interrupt one skill. So for the test, the ranger's will have to poison all three dummies and then proced to kill them, with the stipulation that they have to interrupt one during the poison process. So both rangers use their preperations, one uses kindle the other uses apply. The Poison Arrow Ranger uses PA to poison the first two targets, then savage + Poison arrow for the last one. Then proceds to attack the targets till they die. The Apply Ranger uses Penetrating attack on the first, Hunter's on the second, and then savage on the last. Uses the two seconds he is ahead of the PA Ranger to use Kindle, then procceds to kill the targets. Only difference in the speed of the two builds is the duration of the poison, which is four seconds in favor of PA. I'm sorry, four second duration is not worth an elite. And running two preps hardly a stretch when you suggest that there is no other worth while elite to take when running poison.

Sha Noran · Jun 27, 2006, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Only difference in the speed of the two builds is the duration of the poison

Wrong. The difference is the ammount of damage done once the Poison is applied to the targets.

Just ran the test as you wanted, one at a time... my way, ~45 seconds to kill the 60, 80 and 100 armor suits. Yours took about 1:10. I can film it and post it if you'd like, or you could just conceed that you're wrong. Up to you I guess...

Lasher Dragon · Jun 27, 2006, 10:11 PM // 22:11

There was a multiple-prep build I ran around with for a while that was quite a lot of fun. Unfortunately, my computer is in the shop for repairs, so I'm not sure exactly what the build was. I'll try to remember...

Distracting Shot
Needling Shot
Apply Poison
Ignite Arrows
Choking Gas
Practiced Stance {Elite}
Whirling Defense
Troll Unguent

Of course, bringing Practiced Stance makes bringing multiple preps a bit more feasible, so as to maximize the effectiveness of your elite. Basically I had Practiced Stance up 90% of the time, the only time it wasn't is if I needed to hit Whirling to avoid damage. Anyway, before battles I'd have Poison up, tab-space everyone, occasionally Distracting Shot as needed. Then I'd hit Choking Gas and focus on the casters, using Needling once they got below 50% to completely own them. If I or any softies got too much aggro, I'd hit Ignite and make the enemies flee. If you have never seen Ignite Arrows rapid-fired on a group using Needling, you don't know what you're missing.

I'm not saying this is some uber build, but it is fun, and uses multiple preps.